Comments on: Only One Interstellar Travel Community Will Succeed https://lifeboat.com/blog/2012/09/only-one-interstellar-travel-community-will-succeed Safeguarding Humanity Mon, 17 Apr 2017 05:27:36 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.5.3 By: John Hunt https://lifeboat.com/blog/2012/09/only-one-interstellar-travel-community-will-succeed#comment-153979 Tue, 18 Sep 2012 19:04:13 +0000 http://lifeboat.com/blog/?p=4961#comment-153979 Benjamin, there are some possible solutions to the beam divergence problem. Fresnel lenses are one. Using a neutral particle beam since particle beans are about 6 times more efficient than masers IIRC. SailBeam is a particularly interesting concept.

Also, you could either produce power at different points in the solar system so as to allow a longer track for high power acceleration or you could transfer power from point to point within the solar system to likewise produce a longer acceleration track. Finally, you could launch your interstellar craft on a path that will bring it back towards the Eartn. On its way to the Earth, you could beam power which could be used to accelerate it using advanced ion propulsion. Then, after passing the Earth, you could beam propel it directly on its way out.

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By: JohnHunt https://lifeboat.com/blog/2012/09/only-one-interstellar-travel-community-will-succeed#comment-153813 Sun, 16 Sep 2012 14:06:21 +0000 http://lifeboat.com/blog/?p=4961#comment-153813 Benjamin, the “slow boat” is actually the quickest to launch. It is also the quickest to achieve its goal. It is also the most important of all interstellar missions. Here’s why.

A science probe achieves its goal only after data is returned. So, if it travels at 10% light speed and dies a flyby, them it would be 47 years before we get the data. By contrast, an interstellar mission whose goal is to ensure the survival of humanity achieves its goal the moment it gets a safe enough distance from Earth. For biotech threats, that’s the moment of launch. All other goals are pointless if humanity doesn’t survive. All science, all history, all humanitarian progress is lost if humanity is lost.

Also, it would presumably take longer to develop the launch facilities to launch something at 10% light speed than .2% light speed. Likewise, it would presumably take longer to develop the infrastructure to launch a larger payload than a smaller payload at the same speed.

Also, the level of technological development of the components of an ESCAPE Mission is more advanced right now than for a science probe and the natural development of these technologies is progressing faster than the propulsion technologies for a science probe. For example, a realistic-looking and acting android will likely be developed (without input from an interstellar budget) within 50 years anyhow because it would serve other goals such as the need for tour guides or an elderly companion or whatever.

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By: Benjamin T. Solomon https://lifeboat.com/blog/2012/09/only-one-interstellar-travel-community-will-succeed#comment-153592 Fri, 14 Sep 2012 01:47:36 +0000 http://lifeboat.com/blog/?p=4961#comment-153592 Gary Church, so you could not answer my question, and therefore throw up a smoke screen to avoid answering my question.

So once again you have shown you don’t understand the process of science. I pity you.

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By: Benjamin T. Solomon https://lifeboat.com/blog/2012/09/only-one-interstellar-travel-community-will-succeed#comment-153590 Fri, 14 Sep 2012 01:43:58 +0000 http://lifeboat.com/blog/?p=4961#comment-153590 John Hunt, thanks for your insights, and your justification for the slow boat, but I’m in a hurry.

Having worked 10 years for Texas Instruments, the question “You want it when?!” (implying, are you crazy you need that much time? I wanted it yesterday!) is in my blood.

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By: Benjamin T. Solomon https://lifeboat.com/blog/2012/09/only-one-interstellar-travel-community-will-succeed#comment-153585 Fri, 14 Sep 2012 01:34:19 +0000 http://lifeboat.com/blog/?p=4961#comment-153585 Tom Kerlick, I agree with you that “deriving a proof in mathematical physics does not necessarily follow true that something can be actualized in engineering”. There are many cases of this in physics. Many. My work, however, is very close to the engineering. So that won’t be a problem.

The last chapter of my book discusses experimental precursor engine designs. The proprietary stuff not discussed in the book needs some more engineering research not physics research. An optimistic time period for a working engine development is three years. That should give you an idea of how far down the road I am.

And contrary to modern thought, gravity modification cannot deliver interstellar travel.

A few weeks ago, I found an internet reference to a paper on achieving “1000+velocity of light using quantum foam” by a fairly well know physicist, and it is gone now (Robert Nemiroffs’ finding may have caused him to remove his link), but don’t worry it will resurface soon, and when it does I will post the link here.

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By: GaryChurch https://lifeboat.com/blog/2012/09/only-one-interstellar-travel-community-will-succeed#comment-153567 Thu, 13 Sep 2012 19:43:47 +0000 http://lifeboat.com/blog/?p=4961#comment-153567 I am with John- we think the same and adhere to “Safeguarding Humanity.“
Sadly, we are among the few with any realistic approaches to accomplishing the lifeboat mission before something bad happens.
” you are funny. Your comments are a comedy of errors. “
Uh-huh,
well, you might tell that to Stanislaw Ulam, Freeman Dyson, Werner Von Braun, Arthur C. Clarke, among others, who said bomb propulsion will work.
You are the one who is funny. Gravity modification? You solved it?
Who is laughing now?

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By: JohnHunt https://lifeboat.com/blog/2012/09/only-one-interstellar-travel-community-will-succeed#comment-153560 Thu, 13 Sep 2012 16:43:36 +0000 http://lifeboat.com/blog/?p=4961#comment-153560 I appreciate the “slow boat” reference. There are quite a number of proposed interstellar missions. Everyone seems to have their favorite. How are we to choose between them. I would like to suggest what I call the First Mission Principle. Simply put, we should put our initial development efforts into that true interstellar mission which is most likely to be the first one to be launched. Whereas on one hand, this should seem rather obvious, the interstellar community tends to ignore this principle and instead focuses most of the expert resources on those approaches which either have a historic development (i.e. Daedalis –> Icarus) or which has sentimental value (e.g. worldships). In both cases, there are more cost-effective approaches to both the science probe and manned approaches.

My concept called Embryo Space Colonization to Avoid Possible Extinction (ESCAPE) is, I believe, the mission most likely to be launched first. I can understand how people might question this since science probes have been sent to the outer planets whereas people haven’t yet been sent. Also, sending living crew largely avoids the difficult engineering problems involved with automated childbearing.

But if you look at the TRL levels for automated childrearing, the components are really quite advanced today and will by default largely be fully mature within 50 years. We’ve had viable humans from frozen embryos for 40 years now. A Cornell researcher was able to use a stem cell-derived artificial uterus to gestate rat pups to our equivalent of 31 weeks. YouTube videos can be viewed of very realistic-looking and moving android robots. There are also YouTube videos of recorded and played-back android behaviors. Siri-like verbal dialogue will be much more realistic in 50 years. Full AI is not necessary. Let me repeat emphatically, full AI is not necessary. Rather, a large expert system could be developed which would adequately simulate intelligent interaction. Current examples include Siri, A.L.I.C.E., and especially cleverbot. I expect the Turing Test to be won within 10 years and certainly within 50 years. Specific, ethical development of parenting robots will be necessary but that would cost in the millions not billions of dollars.

There’s all sorts of other issues such as launch (beamed propulsion), automated habitat and life-support production, and certain ethical issues. I address these in an older version of the concept. Just Google: The EGR Mission.

The key to understanding why he ESCAPE Mission will be the first is because it is the only true interstellar mission that I know of that can justify a travel time greater than about 200 years. The rationale is that the solar system may not be safe from extinction given our lack of evidence that any other civilization has achieved interstellar travel. Yes, there are plenty of alternate explanations for Fermi’s Paradox but universal extinction remains a real possibility and grows in likelihood every year. The Lifeboat Foundation should know better than others the risks to civilization our self-replicating technology will pose before the end of this century. So, a low-mass, slow, less energetic and hence less expensive mission to ensure the survival of humanity at great distance is justified logically, financially, and ethically as likely the first true interstellar mission.

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By: Tom Kerwick https://lifeboat.com/blog/2012/09/only-one-interstellar-travel-community-will-succeed#comment-153547 Thu, 13 Sep 2012 10:25:00 +0000 http://lifeboat.com/blog/?p=4961#comment-153547 Ben- I never suggested that all that is needed in physics is already studied. Perhaps you misunderstood as I doubt you would intentionally use straw man arguments — so let me attempt to clarify my views. I have not read your book… yet — I have just read your advertisements here on it to date. Therefore yes I am extrapolating a bit on my first impressions of your research as you present them here. Deriving a proof in mathematical physics does not necessarily follow true that something can be actualized in engineering. We could talk about Lorentzian manifold and the Gödel metric in mathematical physics but that does not mean time travel spaceships are feasible to engineer either.

Yes — it is my opinion that interstellar travel is a huge jump. This would be the general consensus. As our nearest star systems are many light years away then it is a huge jump to reach them when one considers we have yet to even send a manned mission to Mars which is just 4 light minutes away at nearest approach — and with typical Mars mission plans having round-trip flight times over almost two years — the concept of traveling 4 light years to Alpha Centauri today would be considered crackpot.

However- you have stated that your research may have made that huge jump on paper at least — by solving equations for a gravity modification technique and how to apply them. As I have not read your book I don’t know how far you’ve taken this… but could you extrapolate a little on how much engineering effort would be required to take your research and use a gravity modification technique to travel to somewhere less ambitious such as… Mars… which is 500,000 times closer, and how long it would take to reach it.

Finally your closing point on ‘1,000+ velocity of light is now suspect’ — I don’t know of anyone suggesting superluminal velocities except perhaps Star Trek fanatics. The slowboat approach by another contributor here is what I would consider the unfortunate reality to any such adventure — without revolutionary physics as you have adhered to. Perhaps we are closer to the same page than you think — we both consider such adventure practically impossible without such new revolutions in physics and engineering. I am just the more skeptical that the theoretical physics can be actualized into a real engineering project. Perhaps I need to review the ‘technological feasibility’ section of your book to understand how close you have taken your theoretical research towards an engineering concept that is technologically feasible –leaving aside the financial aspects.

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By: Benjamin T. Solomon https://lifeboat.com/blog/2012/09/only-one-interstellar-travel-community-will-succeed#comment-153531 Thu, 13 Sep 2012 01:37:36 +0000 http://lifeboat.com/blog/?p=4961#comment-153531 Gary Church, you are funny. Your comments are a comedy of errors.

Let me try to dissect your comments on my blog post. H-bombs really?

Search the internet. A 110 kiloton bomb will create on Earth a crater that is 990 ft. wide. An 8 megaton bomb will create one that is 6,240 ft. wide (more than a mile or about 2 km). ‘Create’ means vaporization of everything in that region. Imagine in space where you have nothing, how much bigger a region would this vaporization zone be? So how do you expect to contain and channel this blast when it is vaporizing everything in its path?

Second problem, lethal doses of gamma and neutron radiation is on the order of kilometers. The EMP is the other problem. A 1.44 megaton bomb’s EMP can cause damage 1,500 km away. So how are you going to protect the spaceship?

I looked up Small Singularity Propulsion and the Journal of Applied Treknology popped up? Is that your idea of science?

I looked up Louis Crane and Shawn Westmoreland, to give them the benefit of the doubt (http://arxiv.org/abs/0908.1803) they say “at the edge of possibility” so they know this is not going to be practical any time soon. They add “but quantum gravity effects could change the picture.” And we know from Robert Nemiroff’s findings that quantum gravity is now suspect.

I have two questions for you. The second I will ask after you have answered the first. With respect to Crane and Westmoreland, in his blog Jim claims using 1 billion metric tons to propel his craft.
(http://jamesmessig.wordpress.com/2009/11/28/louis-crane-kans…a-star-sh/)

Jim says Cran & Westmoreland proposed a million metric tons. How are you even going to get a nano-ounce of black hole matter when you cannot even do antimatter which we now have? (re John Eades)

Jim suggests that for every ton of payload you need 1,000,000 tons of black hole mass. Really? And Gary Church this is your idea of realistic?

I’m waiting for your reply before I ask the second question.

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By: Benjamin T. Solomon https://lifeboat.com/blog/2012/09/only-one-interstellar-travel-community-will-succeed#comment-153530 Thu, 13 Sep 2012 01:33:45 +0000 http://lifeboat.com/blog/?p=4961#comment-153530 John Hunt, thanks.

In my opinion beamed propulsion is still conventional rocket technology except momentum exchange is provided directly or indirectly by photons.

All lasers, even though coherent, suffer from beam divergence and therefore there is a limit to how far away the laser source can be from the payload ship. Definitely not Alpha Centuari.

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