Comments on: The runaway greenhouse reversal: Cooling Venus https://lifeboat.com/blog/2012/02/the-runaway-greenhouse-reversal-cooling-venus Safeguarding Humanity Tue, 28 Feb 2012 17:45:15 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.6.1 By: Bennie Beaver https://lifeboat.com/blog/2012/02/the-runaway-greenhouse-reversal-cooling-venus#comment-102737 Tue, 28 Feb 2012 17:45:15 +0000 http://lifeboat.com/blog/?p=3137#comment-102737 I admit that I’m just a twelfth-grader interested in science, but I have something to say on the subject of terraforming Venus.

I suppose one could dream of some grand leverage or force to move Venus to an orbit opposite earth, but then, that may take some improvements in technology. I agree with the shade idea between the sun and Venus in combination with other ideas like elevating water from a moon of Jupiter called Europa (of course we may find life on Europa), or maybe Saturn’s moon Titan, or the Kuiper Belt to propel to Venus.…not to mention, taraforming Mars. Maybe this way we could first do something to change the chemistry of the problem. Then we could use incredibly huge fussion bombs from earth further breaking down CO2 and sulfur deoxide. Than make use of self-replicating lime producing nanobots to begin recovering from acid deposition.

Should we rocket a huge fussion bomb to Venus for a test? What’s to lose? Let’s get a real test! World knows we got plenty skill at making fussion bombs.

Furthermore, could more water from comets/Europa, etc. help cool Venus? I’m a can-do person. I believe that taraforming Mars may be the first effort, but we will taraform Venus if we need or want to.

http://www.drwarpenstein.com

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By: Paul Graham Raven https://lifeboat.com/blog/2012/02/the-runaway-greenhouse-reversal-cooling-venus#comment-101453 Wed, 08 Feb 2012 11:35:40 +0000 http://lifeboat.com/blog/?p=3137#comment-101453 (Ah, apologies; first para of comment above was meant to be a blockquote, didn’t realise the comment field here doesn’t parse HTML. :) )

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By: Paul Graham Raven https://lifeboat.com/blog/2012/02/the-runaway-greenhouse-reversal-cooling-venus#comment-101452 Wed, 08 Feb 2012 11:34:57 +0000 http://lifeboat.com/blog/?p=3137#comment-101452

Point of order: Venus’s atmosphere & temperature makes its SURFACE too hostile for colonization. The cloud deck at 50 km altitude is very nearly the most hospitable extra-terrestrial location in the solar system. Perhaps THE most hospitable. A thin coat of glass, or some other substance that protects from the sulfuric acid in the atmosphere is all you need. And a valve leak when the outside air pressure is the same as the inner pressure is much less disastrous than on Mars or the Moon.

Serendipitously enough, I was just reading a recent sf novella that uses exactly this trope for its backdrop: “The Sultan Of The Clouds” by Geoffrey Landis. Not the most original story, perhaps, but the Venusian cloud civilisation is a pretty slick bit of worldbuilding. :)

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By: Tom Kerwick https://lifeboat.com/blog/2012/02/the-runaway-greenhouse-reversal-cooling-venus#comment-101430 Wed, 08 Feb 2012 01:56:05 +0000 http://lifeboat.com/blog/?p=3137#comment-101430 That’s a good point John, works with anything in progressive design — ‘start small, think big’. I think it is especially applicable to a tentative topic such as space colonization.

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By: JohnHunt https://lifeboat.com/blog/2012/02/the-runaway-greenhouse-reversal-cooling-venus#comment-101425 Tue, 07 Feb 2012 23:47:43 +0000 http://lifeboat.com/blog/?p=3137#comment-101425 The sunshade idea seems to have merit although again it would probably still take an inordinate amount or time to cool. But if looking for an engineering solution, why MUST we get things across the entire surface of Venus to Earth-like conditions? If we allow paraterraforming then the issues becomes, can we make a cool surface on top of that hot surface? Can we make pressure vessels so that we get 1 arm of pressure in the living spaces, and can we produce a breathable environment. I think that the answer to all of those is yes. Keep expanding the paraterraformed areas until it covers the surfaceof Venus.

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By: Paul Werbos https://lifeboat.com/blog/2012/02/the-runaway-greenhouse-reversal-cooling-venus#comment-101383 Mon, 06 Feb 2012 21:06:26 +0000 http://lifeboat.com/blog/?p=3137#comment-101383 Fr decades, people have talked about bioengineering some kind of archaea to live in the (high) atmosphere of Venus, to try to initiate some kind of carbon fixation. But if they end up sinking to the surface, would it be unstable (fires)? Is there hope of binding it to something else (like the calcium which has been crucial to earth)? Perhaps if we ever move further out into the solar system, skimming the atmosphere of venus for our own use might have some possibilities.
Not exactly this week’s project… part of Life Form Designs and Extreme Ecology, fields at a very early stage right now.

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By: Brock https://lifeboat.com/blog/2012/02/the-runaway-greenhouse-reversal-cooling-venus#comment-101382 Mon, 06 Feb 2012 21:05:08 +0000 http://lifeboat.com/blog/?p=3137#comment-101382 Point of order: Venus’s atmosphere & temperature makes its SURFACE too hostile for colonization. The cloud deck at 50 km altitude is very nearly the most hospitable extra-terrestrial location in the solar system. Perhaps THE most hospitable. A thin coat of glass, or some other substance that protects from the sulfuric acid in the atmosphere is all you need. And a valve leak when the outside air pressure is the same as the inner pressure is much less disastrous than on Mars or the Moon.

To ask a question: What would happen if we captured a carbonaceous asteroid, and spun out a giant sun shade between Venus and the sun? How much would that speed up its cooling down, if it was subject to eternal night? We could crash an ocean’s worth of water into it later, when the sun shade had done its work.

Later (much later) when the atmosphere had cooled and the oceans were liquid again the sun shade could be replaced with a difractor that reduced the amount of sunlight reaching Venus to something more Earth-normal, to keep it from becoming too hot again.

Of course, it may all be a moot point if the Super-AI nanobots consume Venus and build a Dyson bubble out of it.

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By: Professor Garry E Hunt https://lifeboat.com/blog/2012/02/the-runaway-greenhouse-reversal-cooling-venus#comment-101376 Mon, 06 Feb 2012 19:30:26 +0000 http://lifeboat.com/blog/?p=3137#comment-101376 I am always concerned with the proposal of a one dimensional solution to a four dimensional problem as we have here. The chemical changes are interesting. But this proposal would be at a single place. The Venus problem affects the entire rotating planet, so how do you make the proceed solution work for the entire planet? As the planet rotates, the external heating effects will vary in different locations and the associated temperature gradients will create pressure changes and therefore local winds. The locally varying winds affect the chemical mixing so that the suggested solution will also be different all over the planet and not have the uniformity required by the suggested proposal. FurthermoreI doubt whether the suggested proposal would produce a stable atmosphere.
I do not consider the proposal offers a workable solution for reversing the runaway Greenhouse effect we witness on Venus.

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By: Patrick Takahashi https://lifeboat.com/blog/2012/02/the-runaway-greenhouse-reversal-cooling-venus#comment-101374 Mon, 06 Feb 2012 18:57:04 +0000 http://lifeboat.com/blog/?p=3137#comment-101374 I enjoy reading about these grand solutions, for they make you think. All my recent books are entitled SIMPLE SOLUTIONS, but, of course, they are anything but.

Anyway, fine to talk about it, but the reality is that this one is not worthy of serious consideration. When you ask what for, how, how long and how much, the exercise becomes ludicrous. Maybe I’ve become too much the isolationist, as I thought the International Space Station was a waste of money and I’ve long argued that we should pull 90% of our military out of those 150 countries:

http://planetearthandhumanity.blogspot.com/2011/12/did-we-win-world-war-ii.html

As you might know, one of the chapters from my SIMPLE SOLUTIONS for Planet Earth is entitled, “The Venus Syndrome.” I have a couple of Huffiington Post articles on this very subject:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/patrick-takahashi/the-venus-sy…06120.html

the first one being almost four years ago when I got frustrated that compelling logic was not working on decision-makers, so, I thought, maybe fear can be more effective. I’m actually taking this concept to another level with an upcoming novel on the theme…then, who knows, maybe a best-seller and movie? A few stand alone postings did not make any ripple, but maybe that movie might become the difference maker. Otherwise, global warming will become yet another issue where this fatal flaw of our society–not being able to make a decision until it is too late–prevails. Unfortunately, this one could be fatal to Humanity on Planet Earth.

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By: Tom Kerwick https://lifeboat.com/blog/2012/02/the-runaway-greenhouse-reversal-cooling-venus#comment-101373 Mon, 06 Feb 2012 18:46:20 +0000 http://lifeboat.com/blog/?p=3137#comment-101373 Ray — thanks for the feedback. That 1 million year cycle to cool the surface rock to 20°C seems quite incredible — is that a linear trajectory? How can molten rock on Earth cool so much quicker — were the calculations based on a slowly cooling 450°C atmosphere?

I was considering what the effects of more direct approachs than seeding the atmoshpere with algae would be. What would happen if liquid hydrogen was gradually introduced in a controlled manner with the right catalysts — could the CO2 be converted back into carbon and water? Or would you just get methanol? Is there something more appropriate that could be introduced to do this?

I know we can talk of 20,000 years as a long time, but not in the general lifetime of the Earth, assuming humanity doesn’t completely screw up our planet — despite our best efforts. All in all, options like the Moon and Mars of course pose more immediate options for colonisation, but I was wondering if Venus is a real opportunity that could prove more the attractive in the long term if we could tame her — A long shot though.

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