Comments on: Solution In Search Of A Problem — Nationalism, Environmentalism, and Space’s struggle for cultural relevance. https://lifeboat.com/blog/2011/09/solution-in-search-of-a-problem-nationalism-environmentalism-and-spaces-struggle-for-cultural-relevance Safeguarding Humanity Sat, 15 Oct 2011 18:03:29 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.6.2 By: Fred Becker https://lifeboat.com/blog/2011/09/solution-in-search-of-a-problem-nationalism-environmentalism-and-spaces-struggle-for-cultural-relevance#comment-93214 Sat, 15 Oct 2011 18:03:29 +0000 http://lifeboat.com/blog/?p=2216#comment-93214 This is an interesting discussion and I hope you reach a good conclusion from it. I would like to just share a very similar discussion that I see happening over on Rand Simberg’s blog. He talks about settlement as the goal for space.

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/it%E2%80%99s-the-space-developm…epage=true

Jeff Greason of XCor also spoke about this earlier this year at ISDC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wy2kIPLsUn0

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By: Dmitri Donskoy https://lifeboat.com/blog/2011/09/solution-in-search-of-a-problem-nationalism-environmentalism-and-spaces-struggle-for-cultural-relevance#comment-92252 Sun, 02 Oct 2011 23:59:54 +0000 http://lifeboat.com/blog/?p=2216#comment-92252 Fantastic discussion Eric! As usual, you have provided an excellent break down of the obstacles we face as a planetary species on the verge of climbing out of our planetary cradle.

Humanity is mature enough now to organize around our technological global consciousness. The Internet allows us to organize on a global scale to push all of humanity forward into Post Industrial Society. One burgeoning organization working towards this space faring future is called the Living Universe Foundation. Their work can be found online at http://www.luf.org.

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By: John Wheeler https://lifeboat.com/blog/2011/09/solution-in-search-of-a-problem-nationalism-environmentalism-and-spaces-struggle-for-cultural-relevance#comment-92114 Sat, 01 Oct 2011 05:54:13 +0000 http://lifeboat.com/blog/?p=2216#comment-92114 The cost of sending stuff into space can easily be reduced by several orders of magnitude by using what are essentially massive cannons. The problem is that the stuff can’t be squishy like people or complicated satellites that can’t withstand hundreds of Gs. This means that the people to make the stuff into things need to be in orbit (at least telerobotically).

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By: Ray Wright https://lifeboat.com/blog/2011/09/solution-in-search-of-a-problem-nationalism-environmentalism-and-spaces-struggle-for-cultural-relevance#comment-91884 Wed, 28 Sep 2011 09:26:06 +0000 http://lifeboat.com/blog/?p=2216#comment-91884 I’m fully in agreement with Eric’s post, and also with Flash Gordon’s about money. It is indeed about money. The insane cost of current space access, even with the likes of Falcon-9, etc, means that space colonisation is impossibly expensive now and it may even get worse, as the environmental costs of an expanding population and decreasing natural resources, as they are consumed at an ever-increasing rate, put up the costs of everything. The cost of space access underlies everything we want to do and that has to come down. The only way it can come down is to go to completely-reusable launch systems. I and my collaborators have just such a system in mind but we need financial backers.

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By: JohnHunt https://lifeboat.com/blog/2011/09/solution-in-search-of-a-problem-nationalism-environmentalism-and-spaces-struggle-for-cultural-relevance#comment-91874 Wed, 28 Sep 2011 03:40:44 +0000 http://lifeboat.com/blog/?p=2216#comment-91874 I perceive that this article is largely a counter to my article two articles back.

I found your article well thought out and well supported. Although, I too didn’t make it all the way through before deciding to post, I too promise to read it completely when I have time & post another response.

As far as I got, I found your arguments to largely be accurate. Certainly space is a hard sell in this Age of Austerity. You might well be right about the decline even in the communications part of space. Space exploration for science does not need humans — others don’t but I agree with you. I also agree with you that the public doesn’t value (or much think about) the need to establish an off-Earth colony as an insurance policy. Also, NASA is drifting right now. And I could go on.

However, I am not prepared to accept your conclusion for a number of specific reasons.

For the sake of discussion, I am going to use SpaceX as THE example of New Space, but there are others. First of all, SpaceX has shown that there is a path, a never before tried path, which is proving to be far most cost-effective. Just this week, there have been two SpaceX-related news items which demonstrates this:
1) The NASA Associate Deputy Administrator for Policy did a NAFCOM study showing that SpaceX developed the Falcon 9 at about 1/3 of the cost had NASA procured it in the way that it has done it in the past.
2) SpaceX just applied to the FAA to develop a Vertical Takeoff Vertical Landing rocket. At the NASA Spaceflight Forum they are concluding that this is SpaceX planning on working on reusability of the first stage.

So, Eric, you can’t just look at NASA’s failings of the past, the decreasing overall budget, and maybe a decline in the launch market. To be fair, you must also look at trends which have a reasonable chance at creating a new situation.

So, I see in 10–20 year time frame, human space flight (HSF) becoming a whole lot cheaper than the Shuttle. And, if SpaceX masters reusability (it sure looks like they are going to make an attempt at it), then those prices might drop much further. When this happens, it is going to be a completely new situation and the US would be stupid not to recognize how we could continue our HSF program on the cheap.

Also, it is true that, after the Apollo program, the American people have not valued HSF that much. But, that fact didn’t translate into budget reality that much. For example, the budget remained high enough for all of those Space Shuttle flights by those unknown astronauts so that the ISS could be completed. I believe that our nation is committed to continuing HSF at least until the ISS is deorbited and I believe that the US will continue HSF if for no other reason than to fight against any national decline.

So, I see things playing themselves out as I laid out in my previous article. The SLS may well die (I certainly hope so). Either way, with time, it will become obvious that the New Space companies can deliver far more bang for the buck than how we’ve been doing it before. So, after they master HSF to the ISS (in a few short years), the obvious thing to wonder is if that same approach can take us beyond Earth orbit. But, for a cheap (e.g. no SLS) and sustainable first step, the Moon is the logical next destination and for economic sustainability, that means harvesting lunar ice. There is no other path to anywhere that makes more logical, natural sense. After multiple landers prove their safety, and after teleoperations turn lunar ice into water and O2, humans can follow. At that point, I argue that long duration stays already puts us close enough to self-sufficiency that it would be an easy well to say, “Hey, since we’re already this close, why not go for full self-sufficiency…just in case.”

But, one important point, is that we (e.g. the Lifeboat Foundation) can make a difference as to whether this vision is realized. There needs to be a lot of work put into figuring out:
— the least expensive yet safe way of telerobotically preparing for the first astronauts back to the Moon and
— how go from just life support from lunar ice, to full self-sufficiency.
There are experts who can figure this out and indeed there has been some good work along these lines. But more needs to be done and there needs to be an organized advocacy of such a plan.

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By: Keith J. Dauzat https://lifeboat.com/blog/2011/09/solution-in-search-of-a-problem-nationalism-environmentalism-and-spaces-struggle-for-cultural-relevance#comment-91861 Tue, 27 Sep 2011 22:58:16 +0000 http://lifeboat.com/blog/?p=2216#comment-91861 Well done sir. This was a timely and thought provoking piece.

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By: Scott Brown https://lifeboat.com/blog/2011/09/solution-in-search-of-a-problem-nationalism-environmentalism-and-spaces-struggle-for-cultural-relevance#comment-91859 Tue, 27 Sep 2011 22:36:58 +0000 http://lifeboat.com/blog/?p=2216#comment-91859 The reason that it isn’t happening is simply that “We the People” are not doing it. It is up to the people to step up and take on the task of both being sustainable as if we were developing a space colony on Planet Earth, but also building space ships for the colonization of space and planets.
The two go hand in hand.
We must develop a community that is fully sustainable, build it, live in it and experiment with the process while simultaneously building space ships that do a whole lot more than what Sir Fancy Pants is proposing.
I get it, I just don’t like it.
Once again, we are waiting and boot-licking in the process to just go do what needs to be done.
Spaceport America is where we need to gather.
We need to work together, collaborate, share, take care of one another, love one another and go to the stars.
Spaceport America is ready for the people to appear and go to work.
Karen and I are already here and waiting.

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By: flashgordon https://lifeboat.com/blog/2011/09/solution-in-search-of-a-problem-nationalism-environmentalism-and-spaces-struggle-for-cultural-relevance#comment-91851 Tue, 27 Sep 2011 21:28:40 +0000 http://lifeboat.com/blog/?p=2216#comment-91851 As of paragraph two, the main concerns are problems of getting to space whether govenment or commercial/private.

The Issue is money. Trying to sell space colonization and exploration/expansion to the public has always been a problem because your asking them(both government and non-science public) to fund a minority(scientists are a minority in this high tech age!) to go storming the heavens!

What’s more, these very same people are struggling to understand how to make an economy working! The answer is obvious from perhaps a radical scientists perspective; science and technology(hence space; although, nanotech calls into question space expansion as the only solution to humanities woes) is how you generate wealth! Look, you want to make jobs? Make new science and technologies! Since we’ll never know the whole truth, there’s always room for some new scientific and technological discovery! Space also fits in nicely with this arguement!

You have a long post; i’ll hope to read it soon enough and comment soon enough!

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By: giorgio gaviraghi https://lifeboat.com/blog/2011/09/solution-in-search-of-a-problem-nationalism-environmentalism-and-spaces-struggle-for-cultural-relevance#comment-91846 Tue, 27 Sep 2011 20:48:34 +0000 http://lifeboat.com/blog/?p=2216#comment-91846 Space Development
The depressed status of space development is basically due to a great misunderstanding by the general public.
Space was promoted as a cold war duel, it attracted public attention all over the world, and every space feat was hailed as an important and global achievement.
After Apollo, the US won the game, there was no more money, from both parts, nor goals , to continue the expensive activity and both parts decided to reduce the effort.
Now , forty years later , we are still at the same level of technology. We are even going backwards , proposing again disposable rocket systems with sea rescue for the astronauts, putting aside the entire shuttle experience, instead of restarting from there and propose a much more advanced system.
But all this are negative and pessimistic considerations. Let’s look forward with PMA (positive mental attitude).
Why space is neglected by the entrepreneur and new generation community that prefer information and communication technologies for their investments?
There are many answers to that, but the most relevant is:
–Because space is not profitable
–because space technology is obsolete and don’t allow order of magnitudes costs reductions
–because there are no immediate and available goals to excite the fantasy and the interest of the public opinion
–finally, because space don’t sell
These are the most common answers.
But let’s look at it in a different way.
Space is an endless gold mine for whoever will have the courage , the intelligence and the willingness to pursue its development.
A relatively limited investment , (when we consider that for a flat panel plant we invest over 10B$) will allow to make operational a cruiser-feeder. wholly reusable transportation system connecting our planet with the moon and mars.
Such system, by retrieving and utilizing small asteroids, can transform itself in a space –based spaceport and a profit generating community. (selling transportation to pax and cargo to the Moon and Mars), space manufactured fuel to rocket launchers and many other activities..
Settlements can be created in both bodies , spurring new technologies and ultimately new economies.
Fuel for rockets can be manufactured in space, minerals can be transformed and utilize as well. Helium 3 can be collected on the Moon and sent to earth, solar satellites can power the earth as well as other bodies.
The Moon can be Terraformed and is close by, immense riches would be available, claims can be distributed and pioneers can start getting there and build an economy.
How can we Terraform the Moon? No atmosphere, radiations, extreme temperatures?
Very easily and far less expensive as the Mars proposal where you have to act on an entire planet (yes it has atmosphere , a climate etc).
By building underground
Small habitat cells , of modular design, can be built underground, with built in protection against the above ground hostile environment, including deadly radiations, in a step by step plan The habitat cells can expand , transform in cities and be connected between them forming a new world.
The construction activity, being mostly based on excavating, can have as a side benefit , the minerals exploitation creating wealth for the population.
Such underground technology can be utilized in most hostile bodies of the solar system and allow a shirtsleeve and safe environment for humans.
A affordable, rich new world , and in this case also new frontier, can encourage average people to go, like during the Old West times.
This is a just an example, space –based activities can expand , form a new economy. With affordable transportation claims can be distributed and the Moon first, other bodies later, can be “Terraformed” without revolutions and extreme costs and centuries of hard work.
This can be immediate available, we only need a visionary entrepreneur, that realize that space development can offer much more that a few new gadgets and really transform our lives and our history.

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